Where do I start ?

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Post by Garry on Mon 28 Apr 2008, 20:13

First topic message reminder :

Hi, we're just doing some updating on this thread fixing links etc. So some pics and vids may not display. We'll be done soon, thanks MSO

So you've just found out about the Melbourne Shuffle, and you want to know more. You've come to the right place Smile

The Melbourne Shuffle is an underground dance culture, which began in Melbourne (Australia) in the early 1990's and has now spread around the world.

It's a friendly inclusive culture. All nations, races, languages, abilities, old and young, male and female, are welcome.

There's a lot you can learn, in Shuffle moves, music, fashion, art works, video, meet-ups, crews, teams all associated with the Shuffle.

So please, don't be shy, we welcome people new to the Shuffle, and we're happy to help with whatever we can. So please ask...


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Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 14:07

Pontus_S wrote:If I do half beat, to me that is I touch the ground every second beat with my foot, so I move the other foot heel on one beat then toe on the next, just so we are talking about the same thing.


Ahhh...Smile half beat is in between the beats so 1-2-3-4 becomes 1-half-2-half-3-half-4-half, both taking the same time to complete, say 4 seconds. With the half beat, you actually double the number of beats in that 4 seconds. And you mean 'half as many' beats in 4 seconds 1- 3- etc

The beats we refer to in shuffling and in dance generally are music measures and terms. In dance the 4 beats are the standard unit which we call a 'bar'. 4/4 time means 4 beats to the bar. If you halve the beat length it become 8/8 or 8 beats to the same bar. What you are refering to could be 2/4 2 beat to the same bar. or actually still just 4/4 with a pause beat after each one 1-pause-3-pause etc Wink

It's a bit confusing, because most techno and dance music made in the past 20 years has been done by people with no music theory knowledge, the most complicated they get is how many beats per minute BPM, which is just the 'tempo' or speed. For DJ's especially that's about as far as their music theory knowledge goes.

Musicians and composers on the other hand know more about the theory, even if it's rudimentary knowledge for working with music software such as ACID or SONAR ETC.

For instance you can have music at 120 bpm which is actually faster than 140 bpm, simply because you use 8 beats to the bar, not 4. So the 120 sounds like 240 bpm.

It's a good point you've raised. I'll get some grafix and work out a post that goes into this a bit better so we're talking the same language.

For 20 years all the focus in dance music has been on DJ's and their terminology has been the usual yardstick.

But Shuffling is all about the dance, and it's far more sophisticated than how many beats per minute. We have accents pauses, grace notes, triplettes 8th 16th notes all directly related to physical movements, just like actually physically playing a musical instrument.

The DJ's don't like it, they just want a simple speed to beat mix. Which is fine for them, but of little or no use to dancers. Dancers need to stop for breath every now and then, muscles get tired etc so dancers look for rythym more than beat, which fluxuates according to the way your body moves.

Which is why you'll find Shufflers doing their own music mixes with more variety on shuffle vids, designed specifically for the dance, not the DJ.


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default Re: Where do I start ?

Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 14:21

tristan mitch aka tiger wrote:hehehe Very Happy i was right :'D

ahh yea, you were talking about gliding ??? what is gliding and how do you glide Very Happy ??

Gliding is a move which was started by Malaysian shufflers 3-4 years ago.

Mainly it came from seeing beginners 'draging' their foot across the floor to keep balance, rather than lifting it off the floor as in classic shuffling. And other beginners repeated the move, because it was easier.

But over the years it became more sophisticated because of the visual effect. It looks like you're 'sliding on ice', something I'm sure you and Pontus_S are quite familiar with Wink Ironic that the move came from the tropics where the only ice they get comes from a kitchen freezer Laughing

Check out Saha at 2:35 in this vid. He does some brilliant gliding on a smooth carpark surface. It looks like he's on a freshly waxed floor surface and the skill is in how his whole body seems to slide or glide one side to the other while his feet look like they're just flat on the ground.

There's some great shuffling in this vid, well worth studying. Shifter are really progressing hardstyle shuffling way ahead of the others, by mixing in oldskool footwork inbetween the standard stomp of hardstyle. It's very impressive.

SHIFTER - Dare Devil

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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 14:41

thx ill check it out hehe lol its so weird everytime im done practicing there is always a new comment :'D
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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 14:48

LOL I HAVE BEEN GLIDING ALL THIS TIME :'D (i think)

lol hehe wow i have to find a way to tape my self and see my self shuffle, who knows what i have been doing all this time
:'D
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Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 14:53

hehe. It's actually a very natural movement, the old tap dancers did much the same, but would sprinkle sand or pumice powder on the floor to get a percusive sound effect as they dragged their foot over it, like wire brushes on a snare drum.

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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 15:00

heheh i gotta check this out closer though i may be wrong about this but im defenetly going to know what im doing :'D been just mostly doing the runnig man and the T step my own way whle i get the right movement but i have been meeing to ask this but are there any more steps then the running man and the T step, somebody asked about all the moves before but im not asking that im talking about like steps that you repete like they do with the running man and the T step ??? are there any more ??? (not expecting a name for them if there are any)
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Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 15:04

Oh yeh heaps of moves, probably 20 I know of, but most don't have names. The biggest problem has been trying to describe them. Much simpler for everyone to see the moves on a vid.

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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 15:06

ok got any vids ^^ ??



wow 5 pages, i gotta learn to shut up :'D


ps i have not been gliding all this time phew :'D but i have been just kinda gliding in circles though just for the fun of it maby thinking about using it in shuffling never new THAT was gliding hehe maby that other move i have been thinking about using has alredy been named or is one of your 20 unnamed moves, hehe :'D
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Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 16:13

I've got some vids, and trying to track down more. The main problem is getting vids that show the moves really clearly. Often they're in a crowd or with irratic lighting so you can't see everything.

But it'll be a while, I'm coming across them while working on the dvd, there's like 300-400 hours of vids I've got from the oldskool era Smile

It's all on tape too, and in lots of formats some of which are now redundant, SuperVHS, VHS, Video8, Hi8, Umatic, Hi-Band Umatic etc.

Often the moves were a sequence of moves and they would become a shufflers signature style. They'd use maybe 4-5 moves and that would become identified with that person.

For instance here's a vid of a 'hair show'. 'Synergy' The hairdressers I got my hair cut did this show on uni night at a club in Melbourne and asked me to film it for them. Uni night meant free beer unti 9pm Wink

So all the dancers are uni students studying dance at the VCA Victorian College of Arts. All the dancers would shuffle at parties etc, but here they did a choreographed routine to the soundtrack.

the moves are fairly common dance moves you'd see on MTV music videos, but it's the sequence and development of the moves that make it interesting.

They pace the exposure so you get to see the moves a few times then, they throw in some different moves, build a bit of drama with lighting and the 'what will they do next' sort of thing that goes thru your mind while watching.

It's all part of a 'show' everyone watching loves dance and want to see the 'dance narrative' unfold, just like a verbal or text narrative does.

So when you combine shuffle move or any dance moves for that matter, once you've got the moves down, then you work on how to string them together.

The guy in this dance piece can do an excellent one handed handstand, which takes a lot of months practice to get your arm muscles and balance strong enough to do it.

It's very impressive, he does it a couple of times, but not too many that you start saying, yeh yeh, we've seen that what else can you do.

Synergy Hair Show 1995


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Post by Pontus_S on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 20:01

So they usually do not dance to 2/4 beat then?
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Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 20:30

It all varies, depends on your style, ability and energy levels - hehe, just to make it easy for you Wink

No, there's no set steps, it's more of a concept that allows the individual shuffler to decide what they want to include. So if you come up with something in a 2/4 beat etc, as long as you're happy with it, it's shuffling.

Whether others like and do it too, is a different matter.

For instance Ra shuffling here does his own completely different style, and he's still Shuffling.


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Post by Pontus_S on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 20:37

Tristan, about the left foot is harder to move then the right, I just tested to stand flat on one foot and raise the other on the heel or toe's and move it to left-right as fast I could, guess what hehe, damn my left foot is soo slow it is so hard to control it. Maybe that is a good exercise to do to get more control over your left foot.

The thing tough I can move my left foot faster when I shuffle, so I can't move it as fast when standing still doing the thing I just explained, so I am not 100% sure it will help you/us shuffle better. Though I gonan try it for a few days and see if I get better control.

I did just read something interesting about coordination, and practice makes you better slowly though, think about it as learning to ride a bike all over again, it will take time and practice. If you get small imporvements it is hard to notice them yourself so just hang in there, I sure will.


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Post by Garry on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 20:41

I should explain this freedom bit some more.

Shuffling is a FREESTYLE dance form, you do what you please and it's up to you the dancer to decide if you want to call it Shuffling.

That was the principle the oldskool used to ensure creative freedom, because we were artists and not ballroom dancers or dance sports people looking for set routines.

With feet, there'll be the normal dominant foot like you have a dominant hand left or right. So the less dominant foot usually left if you're right handed will need more work to get the same control you have over your right foot co-ordination.

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Post by Pontus_S on Mon 11 Aug 2008, 22:54

I been doing the exercise just to move my left foor left and right for small periods now and then and I just started to get results, tough I can't tell yet if it will help me shuffle any better.

Ok thanks Garry for your explaining, good to know.
Personally I did not really like the glide move.
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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 03:08

Garry wrote:I've got some vids, and trying to track down more. The main problem is getting vids that show the moves really clearly. Often they're in a crowd or with irratic lighting so you can't see everything.

But it'll be a while, I'm coming across them while working on the dvd, there's like 300-400 hours of vids I've got from the oldskool era Smile

It's all on tape too, and in lots of formats some of which are now redundant, SuperVHS, VHS, Video8, Hi8, Umatic, Hi-Band Umatic etc.

Often the moves were a sequence of moves and they would become a shufflers signature style. They'd use maybe 4-5 moves and that would become identified with that person.

For instance here's a vid of a 'hair show'. 'Synergy' The hairdressers I got my hair cut did this show on uni night at a club in Melbourne and asked me to film it for them. Uni night meant free beer unti 9pm Wink

So all the dancers are uni students studying dance at the VCA Victorian College of Arts. All the dancers would shuffle at parties etc, but here they did a choreographed routine to the soundtrack.

the moves are fairly common dance moves you'd see on MTV music videos, but it's the sequence and development of the moves that make it interesting.

They pace the exposure so you get to see the moves a few times then, they throw in some different moves, build a bit of drama with lighting and the 'what will they do next' sort of thing that goes thru your mind while watching.

It's all part of a 'show' everyone watching loves dance and want to see the 'dance narrative' unfold, just like a verbal or text narrative does.

So when you combine shuffle move or any dance moves for that matter, once you've got the moves down, then you work on how to string them together.









aiit i understand what your talking about its going to be hard to find good vidios hehe Wink
i dont need all the vidios now hehe i just wanted to see more moves cuz im kinda getting bored of watching people do only the running man and the T step, wanna see something new Very Happy
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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 03:22

Pontus_S wrote:Tristan, about the left foot is harder to move then the right, I just tested to stand flat on one foot and raise the other on the heel or toe's and move it to left-right as fast I could, guess what hehe, damn my left foot is soo slow it is so hard to control it. Maybe that is a good exercise to do to get more control over your left foot.

The thing tough I can move my left foot faster when I shuffle, so I can't move it as fast when standing still doing the thing I just explained, so I am not 100% sure it will help you/us shuffle better. Though I gonan try it for a few days and see if I get better control.

I did just read something interesting about coordination, and practice makes you better slowly though, think about it as learning to ride a bike all over again, it will take time and practice. If you get small imporvements it is hard to notice them yourself so just hang in there, I sure will.


yea there is a difrence hehe Surprised but yea ti might work could you explain a bt better what you did dont understand perfectly what you did :S it just got on my nerve cuz i could see definet improvement every time i shuffled i can do the runnig man to the fastest song in my playlist Very Happy but its like my left leg got left behind on the T step and that pisses me off, but im not going to give up hehe ill just pracetise more till i get there Very Happy


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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 03:30

Garry wrote:I should explain this freedom bit some more.

Shuffling is a FREESTYLE dance form, you do what you please and it's up to you the dancer to decide if you want to call it Shuffling.

That was the principle the oldskool used to ensure creative freedom, because we were artists and not ballroom dancers or dance sports people looking for set routines.

With feet, there'll be the normal dominant foot like you have a dominant hand left or right. So the less dominant foot usually left if you're right handed will need more work to get the same control you have over your right foot co-ordination.

yea i get its a freestyle dance form thats why i wanna see more difrent moves that i can use and spice up a little bit add my own little flavor Razz

and yea i know about the dominant foot thingy but its still anoying Very Happy
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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 03:43

Pontus_S wrote:
Personally I did not really like the glide move.

im not trying to make you like it or anything but you have to understand that he is doing it in the car park and shuffling on concreed is tough and him being able to make it look so smooth really is impressing Wink
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Post by Pontus_S on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 05:32

Ok I gonna try answer, describe better how to do the exercise.

Though I don't know if it gives any good results yet.

Stand with both feet flat, lift the heel or the ball of one of your feet. Move the part of the foot that is in the air to the left then to the right, repeat. Try and do it fast, if your left foot is slower, practice with just your left, just to get coordination.
I am abit tired so I am not pro att explaining. Please tell if I need to explain more.

Or search for dexterity/coordination and speed exercises on the web.

About the glide move, I think he was good, but I personally don't like the concept look of the glide move, so it has nothing to do with skill. Ofc I know you ain't trying to make me like it, so it is cool.
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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 05:58

yea i think i get were your going with this it might improve speed dont know if it would help in any other way though :S



hay i know no what makes my left leg T step so weak, its that the balance in my right leg aint good enough and my left leg is more stiff then the right so it works better with the right cheers yeayy now i know exactly what i have to improve drunken
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Post by Pontus_S on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 07:24

That is very good work!
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Post by Garry on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 12:59

hehe the FREEDOM thing is a bit tongue-in-cheek too. It's basically a declaration of dance anarchy Wink

Like someone could sit on the floor and cross their legs and call it Shuffling if they wanted to Laughing We knew this when we came up with the concept.

It infuriated a lot of professional dancer friends of mine who'd spent most of their lives learning how to do set steps 'right'. They'd be graded on these things at arts college, which could mean the end of a professional dance career if they failed. Only about 1% of the 400 or so dancers in a graduating class would end up getting into professional dance companies. They'd be about 18/19 years old, almost too old for most ballet companies, where the prima ballerina's etc would be considered at their peak at 25.

The dance profession is ruthless and barbaric on young kids. So many I've known talk of blood coming out of their shoes, and the dance teacher would just pour disinfectant on the wound, bandage it up and tell them to keep dancing until the end of class.

I've worked on professional dance productions (as a composer/musician) and seen dancers complete a performance with broken bones in their foot. You could hear the bone crack in the performance with a slip or landing badly. They'd go straight to hospital after the curtain came down.

So to come out and say any move can be Shuffling was like a spit in the face to them. But they realised we weren't dumbing down dance, we were creatively liberating it. It was a different philosophy to dance.

Instead of a strict fixed regime, it was open. If anything it was harder because you could go further, there were no set limits, it was open ended. At the same time there were degrees of skill which all Shufflers could recognise and appreciate.

But realistically, most Shufflers shuffle for the pleasure of it, not as a career. So while there'll be more steps and moves added over time, eventually there'll be a core set of moves which are the most popular ones that shufflers do.

I'm working on a series of vids with compilations of different oldskool shufflers so you can get a good look at their moves. It'll have slow motion sections too, so you can see the steps a lot easier.

There's a fair bit of video craft involved because of lighting or the shufflers being in crowd etc. So I'm having to mask out surrounding vision, and enhancing the footage so it's clear.

I'm planning to have the first of these online in a few months - sorry can't get it done much sooner Wink But it'll be worth the wait, there's some stunning stuff around *blatant tease* Wink

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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 13:12

haha the FREEDOM i love this word Razz hehe i can wait for months yea i can Very Happy meenwhile ill be practising hhehe this time the post was here before i went to practise :'D hehe later then


what is blatant tease ?Question
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Post by Pontus_S on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 19:29

Google is your friend:

Blatant

1.brazenly obvious; flagrant: a blatant error in simple addition; a blatant lie.

2.offensively noisy or loud; clamorous: blatant radios.

3.tastelessly conspicuous: the blatant colors of the dress.
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Post by Garry on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 19:48

Laughing yeh you got it Pontus_S

The tease Tristan, is that I told you I have all these stunning vids of shufflers, but you'll have to wait Wink

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Post by tristan mitch aka tiger on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 20:35

hahah i misunderstood i thought you were talking about an event or something xD hehe
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default Re: Where do I start ?

Post by Pontus_S on Tue 12 Aug 2008, 22:26

I pretty happy now to, I did manage to do several hardstyle 1:1 beat ratio songs in a row without missing any step, not any big misses any way, but I have way more to learn though, but now I really feel that I actually can be good some day. Good by my ideal, good enough not to bring shame to me and fellow shufflers, or something like that.
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